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Localised Result List Sorting

Johannes Ruscheinski
Hi,

I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.

Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
not, is there a general interest in such a feature?

Thanks.

-Johannes


--
Dr. Johannes Ruscheinski
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen - IT-Abteilung -
Wilhelmstr. 32, 72074 Tübingen

Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
FAX: +49 7071 29-5069
Email: [hidden email]



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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Uwe Reh
Hi Johannes,

please let me ask a stupid question about the reason.
OK, the French accents and the German umlauts could be a reason. But is
this really important? What's about sorting in Danish, Polish ...

We decided to sort with just one field, which is normalized by the
solr.LowerCaseFilter and the solr.ICUFoldingFilter. Our libraries are
convinced with this solution.

BTW. Libraries and librarians. Who asked for language specific sorting?
Your students/patrons or the 'one' librarian, specialized on French content?
With a look on our usage statistic, I would say: "Don't waste any time
on this claim" ;-)

Viele Grüße
Uwe



Am 08.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:

> Hi,
>
> I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
> our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
> sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
> would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
> title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
> title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
> German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
> I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.
>
> Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
> not, is there a general interest in such a feature?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Johannes
>
>

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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Johannes Ruscheinski
Hi Uwe,

we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.


-Johannes


On 08/05/17 19:32, Uwe Reh wrote:

> Hi Johannes,
>
> please let me ask a stupid question about the reason.
> OK, the French accents and the German umlauts could be a reason. But is
> this really important? What's about sorting in Danish, Polish ...
>
> We decided to sort with just one field, which is normalized by the
> solr.LowerCaseFilter and the solr.ICUFoldingFilter. Our libraries are
> convinced with this solution.
>
> BTW. Libraries and librarians. Who asked for language specific sorting?
> Your students/patrons or the 'one' librarian, specialized on French content?
> With a look on our usage statistic, I would say: "Don't waste any time
> on this claim" ;-)
>
> Viele Grüße
> Uwe
>
>
>
> Am 08.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
>> our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
>> sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
>> would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
>> title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
>> title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
>> German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
>> I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.
>>
>> Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
>> not, is there a general interest in such a feature?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -Johannes
>>
>>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--
Dr. Johannes Ruscheinski
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen - IT-Abteilung -
Wilhelmstr. 32, 72074 Tübingen

Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
FAX: +49 7071 29-5069
Email: [hidden email]



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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Ere Maijala
I second Uwe in asking: Are you sure you want the UI language to affect
sorting? We use Finnish/Swedish sorting everywhere regardless of the
language of the UI. The thing is, most services are based <somewhere>
and abide to the local rules in many more aspects too. If the language
choice affects sorting, it should probably affect other aspects of the
search index as well, such as character folding (e.g. the American would
probably expect to find schön by writing schon). Otherwise the result
would be quite inconsistent.

--Ere

9.5.2017, 9.30, Johannes Ruscheinski kirjoitti:

> Hi Uwe,
>
> we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
> presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
> German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
> non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
> support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
> example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
> there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
> marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
> currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
> Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.
>
>
> -Johannes
>
>
> On 08/05/17 19:32, Uwe Reh wrote:
>> Hi Johannes,
>>
>> please let me ask a stupid question about the reason.
>> OK, the French accents and the German umlauts could be a reason. But is
>> this really important? What's about sorting in Danish, Polish ...
>>
>> We decided to sort with just one field, which is normalized by the
>> solr.LowerCaseFilter and the solr.ICUFoldingFilter. Our libraries are
>> convinced with this solution.
>>
>> BTW. Libraries and librarians. Who asked for language specific sorting?
>> Your students/patrons or the 'one' librarian, specialized on French content?
>> With a look on our usage statistic, I would say: "Don't waste any time
>> on this claim" ;-)
>>
>> Viele Grüße
>> Uwe
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 08.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
>>> our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
>>> sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
>>> would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
>>> title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
>>> title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
>>> German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
>>> I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.
>>>
>>> Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
>>> not, is there a general interest in such a feature?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> -Johannes
>>>
>>>
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>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--
Ere Maijala
Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland

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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Demian Katz
In reply to this post by Johannes Ruscheinski

Johannes,


Clearly there are several people who think this may not be the best use of your time. I'm not going to weigh in on that conversation, though I agree that it's at least worth thinking about.


Going on the assumption that you want to go forward with the change, I'll offer a couple of approaches so that you can weigh the pros and cons.


1.) Here is where VuFind currently processes and normalizes search options:


https://github.com/vufind-org/vufind/blob/41161113dd2c71f1724a05450f93e49271a2843f/module/VuFind/src/VuFind/Search/Solr/Params.php#L445


It would be fairly straightforward to subclass and override the Solr search parameters service, write a custom normalizeSort() method, and adjust the sort field names based on the current language selected in the VuFind\Translator service.


2.) It would also be possible to write and register a listener along the lines of the InjectSpellingListener (https://github.com/vufind-org/vufind/blob/41161113dd2c71f1724a05450f93e49271a2843f/module/VuFind/src/VuFind/Search/Solr/InjectSpellingListener.php) that reads the sort option currently set in the search parameters and rewrites it to include a language suffix. The listener would only require an onSearchPre method since there would be no post-processing necessary. This is probably a less straightforward approach than option 1 above, but it wouldn't require as much deep overriding of code -- you would just create a new listener and register it in a custom Solr backend factory.


If you decide to go forward with the work and need more detailed technical guidance on either of these approaches, just let me know!


- Demian




From: Johannes Ruscheinski <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 2:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [VuFind-Tech] Localised Result List Sorting
 
Hi Uwe,

we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.


-Johannes


On 08/05/17 19:32, Uwe Reh wrote:
> Hi Johannes,
>
> please let me ask a stupid question about the reason.
> OK, the French accents and the German umlauts could be a reason. But is
> this really important? What's about sorting in Danish, Polish ...
>
> We decided to sort with just one field, which is normalized by the
> solr.LowerCaseFilter and the solr.ICUFoldingFilter. Our libraries are
> convinced with this solution.
>
> BTW. Libraries and librarians. Who asked for language specific sorting?
> Your students/patrons or the 'one' librarian, specialized on French content?
> With a look on our usage statistic, I would say: "Don't waste any time
> on this claim" ;-)
>
> Viele Grüße
> Uwe
>
>
>
> Am 08.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
>> our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
>> sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
>> would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
>> title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
>> title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
>> German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
>> I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.
>>
>> Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
>> not, is there a general interest in such a feature?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -Johannes
>>
>>
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--
Dr. Johannes Ruscheinski
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen - IT-Abteilung -
Wilhelmstr. 32, 72074 Tübingen

Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
FAX: +49 7071 29-5069
Email: [hidden email]



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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Uwe Reh
In reply to this post by Johannes Ruscheinski
Hi Johannes,

sorry for being provocative.
We have quite similar requirements. (see the language facet below)
We also share the wish, to build a 'optimal' system. May be, your
approach is really better than ours. I think it's every time worth to
discuss labor-intensive tasks in advance.

Some years ago (2011) we made a survey and got more than 22.000 valid
replies. Nearly none asked for (better) sorting. And today, sorting is
still one of the least used features.
Of course, having the lists well sorted may help in some cases, but how
often? My aim was, to protect you from investing lots of work for a
minmal improvement in customer experience.

You mentioned:
 >People expect, for example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite
different.
We think it's enough to map all this prononcation hints to the base
vocal. ('a' = 'ä' = 'ae' = 'á' = 'ã' = ...)
For some this may not enough, but probably for the most, it is less
confusing. As an "international site' we abstain on advanced language
specific sorting.

Btw.
How do you handle leading articles while sorting?
- they are all relevant?
- they are ignored after a non sorting character?
- they are totally ignored?


Regards
Uwe




Am 09.05.2017 um 08:30 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:

> Hi Uwe,
>
> we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
> presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
> German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
> non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
> support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
> example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
> there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
> marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
> currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
> Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.
>
>
> -Johannes
>

##################### Facet 'language' ################################
         "und",        6110865,  // undefined
         "ger",        5470753,
         "eng",        3368966,
         "fre",        639366,
         "pol",        330220,
         "lat",        190715,
         "ita",        188958,
         "rus",        134413,
         "spa",        133269,
         "cze",        131494,
         "zxx",        88413,
         "heb",        54025,
         "dut",        48837,
         "chi",        40644,
         "jpn",        37912,
         "por",        35823,
         "ara",        33120,
         "lit",        25930,
         "swe",        24231,
         "grc",        22296,
         "slo",        20710,
         "gre",        17704,
         "cat",        17267,
         "dan",        15590,
         "tur",        15154,
         "hrv",        14671,
         "per",        12560,
         "lav",        12483,
         "est",        11977,
         "hun",        11513,
         "rum",        10469,
         "nor",        9247,
         "yid",        8643,
         "ukr",        8493,
         "ind",        7746,
         "bul",        6704,
         "san",        4872,
         "may",        4642,
         "fin",        4556,
         "mul",        3758,
         "srp",        3523,
         "swa",        3292,
         "kor",        3260,
         "slv",        3194,
         "bel",        2599,
         "afr",        1879,
         "ice",        1682,
         "urd",        1447,
         "wel",        1427,
         "tha",        1377,
         "ota",        1312,
         "vie",        1290,
         "syr",        1262,
         "mac",        1101,
         "arm",        974,
         "tib",        967,
         "pli",        913,
         "hin",        858,
         "wen",        856,
         "zul",        831,
         "non",        805,
         "roa",        763,
         "sla",        756,
         "hau",        713,
         "geo",        686,
         "kaz",        674,
         "rom",        666,
         "frm",        649,
         "yor",        641,
         "aze",        634,
         "sot",        621,
         "lin",        613,
         "gle",        603,
         "alb",        566,
         "xho",        557,
         "nso",        533,
         "baq",        519,
         "sna",        481,
         "tsn",        474,
         "arc",        458,
         "mlg",        411,
         "epo",        378,
         "fro",        378,
         "cop",        364,
         "tat",        362,
         "gmh",        347,
         "chu",        343,
         "amh",        338,
         "jav",        335,
         "bnt",        331,
         "gez",        322,
         "twi",        321,
         "tso",        317,
         "uzb",        290,
         "ven",        290,
         "egy",        285,
         "bre",        277,
         "bur",        275,
         "mao",        275,
         "bos",        260
## EOF ####

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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Johannes Ruscheinski
In reply to this post by Demian Katz

Thank you everybody for your thoughtful and thought provoking feedback.  We may wait for VuFind 4.0 and and we will go ahead using Demian's 2nd suggested strategy.


Johannes



On 09/05/17 14:39, Demian Katz wrote:

Johannes,


Clearly there are several people who think this may not be the best use of your time. I'm not going to weigh in on that conversation, though I agree that it's at least worth thinking about.


Going on the assumption that you want to go forward with the change, I'll offer a couple of approaches so that you can weigh the pros and cons.


1.) Here is where VuFind currently processes and normalizes search options:


https://github.com/vufind-org/vufind/blob/41161113dd2c71f1724a05450f93e49271a2843f/module/VuFind/src/VuFind/Search/Solr/Params.php#L445


It would be fairly straightforward to subclass and override the Solr search parameters service, write a custom normalizeSort() method, and adjust the sort field names based on the current language selected in the VuFind\Translator service.


2.) It would also be possible to write and register a listener along the lines of the InjectSpellingListener (https://github.com/vufind-org/vufind/blob/41161113dd2c71f1724a05450f93e49271a2843f/module/VuFind/src/VuFind/Search/Solr/InjectSpellingListener.php) that reads the sort option currently set in the search parameters and rewrites it to include a language suffix. The listener would only require an onSearchPre method since there would be no post-processing necessary. This is probably a less straightforward approach than option 1 above, but it wouldn't require as much deep overriding of code -- you would just create a new listener and register it in a custom Solr backend factory.


If you decide to go forward with the work and need more detailed technical guidance on either of these approaches, just let me know!


- Demian




From: Johannes Ruscheinski [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 2:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [VuFind-Tech] Localised Result List Sorting
 
Hi Uwe,

we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.


-Johannes


On 08/05/17 19:32, Uwe Reh wrote:
> Hi Johannes,
>
> please let me ask a stupid question about the reason.
> OK, the French accents and the German umlauts could be a reason. But is
> this really important? What's about sorting in Danish, Polish ...
>
> We decided to sort with just one field, which is normalized by the
> solr.LowerCaseFilter and the solr.ICUFoldingFilter. Our libraries are
> convinced with this solution.
>
> BTW. Libraries and librarians. Who asked for language specific sorting?
> Your students/patrons or the 'one' librarian, specialized on French content?
> With a look on our usage statistic, I would say: "Don't waste any time
> on this claim" ;-)
>
> Viele Grüße
> Uwe
>
>
>
> Am 08.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I may have asked about this already:  We support several languages with
>> our VuFind installation.  Ideally we'd like to have different result
>> sorting based on the currently selected interface language.  An example
>> would be title sorting:  Right now there is a Solr field called
>> title_sort, I would like, if Solr fields like title_sort_de and
>> title_sort_fr existed that those would be used for people choosing
>> German or French.  Also when changing the interface language explicitly,
>> I'd want the result list sort order to adjust.
>>
>> Does any mechanism providing similar functionality already exist and, if
>> not, is there a general interest in such a feature?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -Johannes
>>
>>
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Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen - IT-Abteilung -
Wilhelmstr. 32, 72074 Tübingen

Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
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Email: [hidden email]



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Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
FAX: +49 7071 29-5069
Email: [hidden email]



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Re: Localised Result List Sorting

Johannes Ruscheinski
In reply to this post by Uwe Reh
Hi Uwe,


On 11/05/17 13:13, Uwe Reh wrote:
> Hi Johannes,
>
> sorry for being provocative.
It didn't sound provocative to me.  :-)
> We have quite similar requirements. (see the language facet below)
> We also share the wish, to build a 'optimal' system. May be, your
> approach is really better than ours. I think it's every time worth to
> discuss labor-intensive tasks in advance.
I completely agree.
>
> Some years ago (2011) we made a survey and got more than 22.000 valid
> replies. Nearly none asked for (better) sorting. And today, sorting is
> still one of the least used features.
I am confused here.  Results are sorted by the system so, in some sense,
it is one of the most used features.
> Of course, having the lists well sorted may help in some cases, but how
> often? My aim was, to protect you from investing lots of work for a
> minmal improvement in customer experience.
That's exactly how I took your comment and thank you for that!
>
> You mentioned:
>  >People expect, for example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite
> different.
> We think it's enough to map all this prononcation hints to the base
> vocal. ('a' = 'ä' = 'ae' = 'á' = 'ã' = ...)
> For some this may not enough, but probably for the most, it is less
> confusing. As an "international site' we abstain on advanced language
> specific sorting.
I am curious what is the approximate makeup of your clients as to
browser language?
>
> Btw.
> How do you handle leading articles while sorting?
> - they are all relevant?
> - they are ignored after a non sorting character?
> - they are totally ignored?
The last one: we currently ignore all leading articles, e.g. "the" and
"die" etc.


Thanks for your thoughtful and considerate comments.  Also I am always
prepared to continue this discussion.  Plus, while certainly not
applicaple here, I can handle even harsh critcism just fine as long as
it seems factual. ;-)

Johannes

>
>
> Regards
> Uwe
>
>
>
>
> Am 09.05.2017 um 08:30 schrieb Johannes Ruscheinski:
>> Hi Uwe,
>>
>> we have a multilingual bibliography with 1.7 million entries and
>> presumably many more in the future.  Only roughly half of those are in
>> German.  Also, this is an international site with many users from
>> non-German-speaking countries.  At the very least we should probably
>> support American and German phone book sorting.  People expect, for
>> example, the ordering of "ä" and "ae" to be quite different.  I am sure
>> there are many other examples, like French characters with diacritical
>> marks etc. We don't support Danish nor do we support Polish. We're
>> currently planning on supporting at least English, Spanish, French,
>> Italian, Simplified Chinese and of course German.
>>
>>
>> -Johannes
>>
> ##################### Facet 'language' ################################
>          "und",        6110865,  // undefined
>          "ger",        5470753,
>          "eng",        3368966,
>          "fre",        639366,
>          "pol",        330220,
>          "lat",        190715,
>          "ita",        188958,
>          "rus",        134413,
>          "spa",        133269,
>          "cze",        131494,
>          "zxx",        88413,
>          "heb",        54025,
>          "dut",        48837,
>          "chi",        40644,
>          "jpn",        37912,
>          "por",        35823,
>          "ara",        33120,
>          "lit",        25930,
>          "swe",        24231,
>          "grc",        22296,
>          "slo",        20710,
>          "gre",        17704,
>          "cat",        17267,
>          "dan",        15590,
>          "tur",        15154,
>          "hrv",        14671,
>          "per",        12560,
>          "lav",        12483,
>          "est",        11977,
>          "hun",        11513,
>          "rum",        10469,
>          "nor",        9247,
>          "yid",        8643,
>          "ukr",        8493,
>          "ind",        7746,
>          "bul",        6704,
>          "san",        4872,
>          "may",        4642,
>          "fin",        4556,
>          "mul",        3758,
>          "srp",        3523,
>          "swa",        3292,
>          "kor",        3260,
>          "slv",        3194,
>          "bel",        2599,
>          "afr",        1879,
>          "ice",        1682,
>          "urd",        1447,
>          "wel",        1427,
>          "tha",        1377,
>          "ota",        1312,
>          "vie",        1290,
>          "syr",        1262,
>          "mac",        1101,
>          "arm",        974,
>          "tib",        967,
>          "pli",        913,
>          "hin",        858,
>          "wen",        856,
>          "zul",        831,
>          "non",        805,
>          "roa",        763,
>          "sla",        756,
>          "hau",        713,
>          "geo",        686,
>          "kaz",        674,
>          "rom",        666,
>          "frm",        649,
>          "yor",        641,
>          "aze",        634,
>          "sot",        621,
>          "lin",        613,
>          "gle",        603,
>          "alb",        566,
>          "xho",        557,
>          "nso",        533,
>          "baq",        519,
>          "sna",        481,
>          "tsn",        474,
>          "arc",        458,
>          "mlg",        411,
>          "epo",        378,
>          "fro",        378,
>          "cop",        364,
>          "tat",        362,
>          "gmh",        347,
>          "chu",        343,
>          "amh",        338,
>          "jav",        335,
>          "bnt",        331,
>          "gez",        322,
>          "twi",        321,
>          "tso",        317,
>          "uzb",        290,
>          "ven",        290,
>          "egy",        285,
>          "bre",        277,
>          "bur",        275,
>          "mao",        275,
>          "bos",        260
> ## EOF ####
>
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--
Dr. Johannes Ruscheinski
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen - IT-Abteilung -
Wilhelmstr. 32, 72074 Tübingen

Tel: +49 7071 29-72820
FAX: +49 7071 29-5069
Email: [hidden email]



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